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Thread: notch stresses on the frame

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  1. #1
    Blazin no mo Forklift's Avatar
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    talking about flawed. there's to many variables and the human factor for you to just stick it in a computer and say "THIS IS GOSPEL" also in a real world application a c arc sucks balls. I know a few shops that have tried them years ago and now wont even let a truck with one in the shop. If you have a s10 with a open rear frame just cut your own inside pieces making the notch part of the frame.

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    I'm BATMAN! Harley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigP View Post
    talking about flawed. there's to many variables and the human factor for you to just stick it in a computer and say "THIS IS GOSPEL"
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but there really is little arguing with physics. Lake Roadster uses both physics calculations and FEA analysis to show that reducing the section height of a frame in any manner drastically changes how strong it is. It is the primary variable that matters beyond getting proper welds when modifying a frame for clearance. No it isn't "gospel", but it is the truth.
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    You guys need to look up on the net about how incorrect FEA analysis can be they have entire college coarse devoted to it. Im not saying he is 100% wrong but there is some flaws in his designs and calculations.

    s10blazed the people who design bridges and other things have there work checked by people trained in analysis validation many times there work fails and goes back to the drawing board or computer program before it is cleared.
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    My S-10 fleet is gone... s10blazed's Avatar
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    I'll stick with the data provided by an engineer using industry standard software over "some guy in a shop who did one before". I see engineers use this type of software daily. Thousands of bridges and roads wouldn't exist without the input/output of the software. It is certainly accurate.

    Seeing that large tube notch and reading it is 80% weaker... that is scary.

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    I'm BATMAN! Harley's Avatar
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    Do you want to elaborate on what he has wrong? Seeing as I've taken several of those college courses devoted to FEA you mention, I model in CAD 40 hours a week, and have a Mechanical Engineering degree, the man producing this analysis appears to be very knowledgable. He also claims to be a Mechanical Engineer which with the work and knowledge he has shown I don't doubt.

    The simple fact of the matter is that by LAWS OF PHYSICS subtracting section height from a beam drastically reduces the strength of that beam. Again, you cannot argue with that. His FEA analysis simply confirms the truth of that.

    Again, maybe I am misunderstanding you. Several of the terms you use do not make sense to me as well as the confusion due to mispelled or incorrect words.
    Last edited by Harley; 05-07-2012 at 05:34 PM.
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    it says what I was thinking in big red letters on his page. One thing is the steel used by Sd.com i think he ran the test with a stronger steel. also he his round notch had a channel in it like I believe fat man customs used to make. I dont think those have been available for years. The round step notches we use could actually be worse than what was tested.

    he didnt account for cross members and only tested for towing and bed loads. not axle force, force induced while corning, hitting bumps or from side impact.
    I agree that bolt in c notches suck. In fact i dont even like a 4 piece notch on a channeled frame. All I am saying and he said to is his results could lean ether way by changing a few things.
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    I'm BATMAN! Harley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phatfarmer2 View Post
    never trusted bolt in notches.. guess science proved that! however anyone of those notches can be acceptable and strong with a cross memeber welded in, from what i gather? they are just doing the science of an c channel rail with no crossmember?
    Quote Originally Posted by blazin4low View Post
    I was going to bolt mine in and bring it to a local shop to have it welded in. After reading the C10 thread I'll be getting a set of plates made to bolt on the inside of the notch just like belltech kits http://www.belltech.com/trucks.php
    The one thing that stuck out to me in that thread is when notching it is best to maintain the section height of the frame as with a step notch or the like. Reading through the discussion, adding in plates or boxing the C frame had very minimal effect without adding the extra height to the frame section as well. There is just no substitue for increasing the height of the frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigP View Post
    it says what I was thinking in big red letters on his page. One thing is the steel used by Sd.com i think he ran the test with a stronger steel. also he his round notch had a channel in it like I believe fat man customs used to make. I dont think those have been available for years. The round step notches we use could actually be worse than what was tested.

    he didnt account for cross members and only tested for towing and bed loads. not axle force, force induced while corning, hitting bumps or from side impact.
    I agree that bolt in c notches suck. In fact i dont even like a 4 piece notch on a channeled frame. All I am saying and he said to is his results could lean ether way by changing a few things.
    If that is all you are saying why make such a huge deal over it? You pretty much trashed any FEA analysis and the guy for something he admitted as much.

    Why not account for crossmembers? Because frame strength relies on all parts. A great notch from the start will make a frame even stronger with the right crossmembers.

    Why did he only address towing and bed loads? Because the trucks he was evaluating essentially only see those loads after the notch. The suspension is all forward of the notch. While he doesn't address all the loads it gives a good idea of what not to do and some possibilities of what could be a good choice.

    In all reality he has provided more information than is commonly available for making notch choices. All we have had to go by in the past is either trusting the manufacturer or a hunch based on our experiences or knowledge. With having seen the hacked threads across the internet this isn't always the best information. He put relative numbers together that compare the different types of notches we can buy or build.
    Last edited by Harley; 05-10-2012 at 11:31 AM.
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    5.7L VORTEC 350 blazin4low's Avatar
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    And now I'm not installing my bolt-in notch....thank you for killing my hopes of more suspension travel and dreams of a smoother ride.

    Any way to plug in the program a welded in bolt in notch and see what it yelds?
    Last edited by blazin4low; 05-07-2012 at 07:30 PM.
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    will work for food! phatfarmer2's Avatar
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    never trusted bolt in notches.. guess science proved that! however anyone of those notches can be acceptable and strong with a cross memeber welded in, from what i gather? they are just doing the science of an c channel rail with no crossmember?
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    5.7L VORTEC 350 blazin4low's Avatar
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    I was going to bolt mine in and bring it to a local shop to have it welded in. After reading the C10 thread I'll be getting a set of plates made to bolt on the inside of the notch just like belltech kits http://www.belltech.com/trucks.php
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    My S-10 fleet is gone... s10blazed's Avatar
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    While not an engineer myself, I can throw a paper clip in any direction and hit one. Being the person in charge of IT at this engineering firm, I am aware of the software used in the design process. If the software was not accurate it wouldn't be used. Period. Any errors are almost always attributed to human error. But you're right - the data does get manually checked by a certified engineer... or confirmed by an engineer is more accurate. I have never seen a drawing checked by an engineer and sent back because the program was wrong. It is always because something else changed or data was entered incorrectly.

  13. #13
    Doesnt look like this supernova's Avatar
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    meh, if you didnt know cutting your frame in half or cutting a huge chunk out of it might not be the best idea for towing a 50 foot boat or hauling 4k pounds of gravel you might want to find a new hobby.

    bolt in notches work, plain and simply. If you want to tow a yacht, or haul enough gravel to fill a swimming pool, dont do it in a slammed truck. My truck has been notched for years, and is fine. A notch cant be much worse than the punishing a frame gets from constant bottoming out.

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    Senior Member blazinmt's Avatar
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    I can respect that guys research, however I personally can't recall seeing a thread where one of those commonly used notches failed. I mean, if bolt in notches (which they have sold and installed probably tens of thousands) were really 80% weaker, wouldn't we have a history of it by now??

    *just thinking out loud*
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    Registered User flnole78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blazinmt View Post
    I can respect that guys research, however I personally can't recall seeing a thread where one of those commonly used notches failed. I mean, if bolt in notches (which they have sold and installed probably tens of thousands) were really 80% weaker, wouldn't we have a history of it by now??

    *just thinking out loud*
    This is what Im thinking too. Ive never seen a properly done notch fail.
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